Clinic Metrics: Building a Web Business in 6 Months and Leaving Corporate America for Good - with Carl Mattiola

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Carl Mattiola is one of the most successful members in the Foundation of last year’s class. You’re going to hear today how he went from having no idea for a business to quitting his job at Tesla Motors. And it’s all because he took action (just 2 hours a day!) and followed the process of the Foundation.

His company, Clinic Metrics is killing it and we’re going to show you how he got there.

In this interview you’ll learn…

  • 03:09  Got his first job with Johnson & Johnson in a leadership rotational type program.
  •  04:45  His first business was a sports bar with his dad.
  • 05:36  Talks about all of the businesses he tried at and failed.
  •  07:38  I almost gave up on running an internet business because I couldn’t find any online businesses that bring value to the world.
  •  09:40  Discovered the Foundation & his desire to run an internet business on his 45-min commute to Tesla through Pat Flynn’s podcast.
  •  10:40  What his mindset was coming into the Foundation
  •  12:28  His experience in the first month of the foundation.
  •  13:27  Talks about his struggles in the beggining. Nervous, uncomfortable.
  •  13:51  How he overcame the uncomfortable things happening in the beginning.
  •  16:33  How he had his first breakthrough, began making progress and taking tons of action. *Action Guide* what limiting beliefs do you have? How can you get over them and begin taking action?
  •  20:43  How he came up with his idea for his business.
  •  23:56  How to find good people to talk to and extract ideas from
  •  25:44  How he was able to find more great people to interview.
  •  26:51  What his business is. Clinic Metrics Business intelligence for physical therapists. Helps them see exactly what’s going on in their business through dashboards and snapshots.
  •  27:14  How he found a pain that people were willing to pay for.
  •  30:00  Why he chose the idea that he did.
  •  34:36  Tactics he used to push himself through development.
  •  37:26  How he pre-sold his product without any previous sales experience
  •  38:48  How it felt when he closed his first sale. He also explains how he made his first offer.
  •  41:55  He got his first check for $2600 for a product that didn’t even exist.
  •  43:55  Had $3,800 in presales (end of January or February) before he started development.
  •  45:57  How he found his developer and negotiated pay. (10% of revenue)
  •  50:11  Talks about some of the limiting beliefs he had and how he overcame them.
  •  54:18  Where the Foundation helped him the most: reversing limiting beliefs & mental blocks.
  •  55:32  Why he decided to quit his job


Show Notes

Podcast transcript

Andy: Welcome everyone to another episode of Starting from Nothing – the Foundation podcast. Today, I have with me none other than Carl Mattiola. Carl, I’m super stoked to have you on the show. Carl’s one of the most successful members in the Foundation of last year’s class. You’re going to hear today how he went from … in November of last year having no idea of what to build to recently, last month, quitting his job at Tesla Motors because of the software company that he had started on the side. Pretty much working two hours a day max.Carl, welcome to the show man. Carl: Thanks man. It’s awesome to be here. Andy: Oh, it’s really awesome to have you here. Let’s get started. Let’s start with just your background. Who are you? How old are you? What kind of jobs you got in the past? Carl: Cool. I’m 32, grew up in Philadelphia area, went to school at La Salle University and played football there and studied Integrated Science, Business and Technology. It’s a weird major and also Business. I was looking to buy a [trucking 00:01:35] business. Graduated and got a job with Johnson & Johnson in a leadership, like, rotational type program. Like the one you were in. Andy: Yeah. Carl: But it was focused on IT. I started off as a programmer working on … working with manufacturing systems and they rotated me around the different places. Ended up in San Francisco then got … left J&J to work for a software company that made products to help basic [inaudible 00:02:12] any type of science. I help them build chemical search engine there. I was kind of managing developers there. Got into product management there and then left there and spent some time in Panama just surfing and hanging out. Came back and got recruited by Tesla to basically be the Product Manager on their website. I did some other stuff for them too but that’s the main thing I was doing for them is working for Tesla Motors and defining everything they do digitally and primarily help other sales process works online. Andy: Have you started a business before? Have you tried starting stuff? Carl: Yeah. I’ve tried a bunch of random little things that didn’t work. Andy: What was the first thing you tried? Carl: My first thing was … okay, I guess. I worked with my dad and we built a sports bar and that went pretty well for awhile. Andy: A sports bar? Carl: Yeah. Yeah. But after that, the stuff that I did really own my own, man. Usually, it was just like ideas or something that I worked on at Johnson & Johnson that we wanted to try to take bigger with other people. Things always happen where everybody had a different idea the way things should go and I never really got anywhere. I try like niche sites. I tried to build a community for home-brewers. I used to brew beer now I don’t drink it anymore. What else did I do? Stand up desks, venture random shit. (Laughs) Andy: (Laughs) Carl: Venture random stuff. Yeah. Andy: So, you tried all these stuff. When was the first time you started trying business ideas outside your job? Like right after college? Carl: Yeah. Probably a year or two after college, like, I’d say 2004 or so. Andy: Why were you trying things? Carl: I knew I always wanted to do that. I always knew I wanted to do something on my own and be my own boss. I kind of have that feeling that that’s where I want to end up. But I took the job probably more because of social pressure than anything else. Andy: What do you mean? Carl: Don’t get me wrong, I was excited about it when I first got the job at Johnson & Johnson and all these other places. I knew I want to do something on my own but everybody say it was better for me to get a good job with a company to learn some things first. You know, maybe that’s true. Maybe it’s not. Knowing what I do now, I wouldn’t have done that. Andy: What would you have done? Carl: I would have just done what I did in the last nine months instead, immediately. Andy: So, you’ve always known that you’ve wanted to do your own thing; try a handful of things. Did you ever give up hope in the process when you’re starting stuff? Carl: [Inaudible 00:05:39]. Andy: After you try so many things, eventually, did it ever get to a point where you’re like, damn! Carl: That was really close like just before I got into the … just before I got into starting the Foundation. After I was done with … after I got back from Panama … I had tried a few things out that I just was going to even like … I thought I wasn’t really even happy with. I thought the only way to do things like that online was to do … in a lot of cases was to do things that I didn’t feel comfortable with. I almost gave up. I was pretty close to giving up then. Andy: Like what wouldn’t you feel comfortable with? Carl: I don’t know. It was stupid niche sites and things like that that just ruin the internet. Andy: (Laughs) Carl: Yeah. Just stuff like that. I wasn’t excited about it because it didn’t really bring value to the world. Yeah. That really got me discouraged when I actually started doing that and then I realize what I was doing. I was like, this is so stupid. Andy: You feel like your soul is being tainted. Carl: Yeah. Exactly. Andy: I’ve been there, man. So, what shifted? Tell me how you found out about the Foundation. Carl: Yeah. It’s a great transition. I was driving to Tesla. Tesla is a cool company, they have great stuff but I just kind of … When I started my job after taking a break in Panama, I thought I was going to be super stoked starting there but ended up just not being that way. And it would be a [inaudible 00:07:29] because I just didn’t like being in the environment of working for somebody else everyday and working on somebody else’s goals. There’s probably no better place to work, in my opinion. It’s a really awesome place and my team was amazing and everything was awesome. It’s just … I was really not happy when I started there. I didn’t know why. I was even getting really anxious and just upset. I felt that feeling and started to look in to other things. I found Pat Flynn’s podcast because I had a 45-minute commute each way every day. I really liked him. I kind of … I had only listened to a couple of them before I found Dane’s podcast. I remember listening to just one or two of his and how open and honest he was. He kind of changed my perception of how you can do certain things online and keep integrity and do what you want. After listening to a couple of his podcast, I came across Dane’s. It was just a really similar … listening to that, it was a similar process to kind of a way I built stuff for people in my jobs and I really like … that resonated for me. I immediately signed up and was ready to go there. Andy: Beautiful man. You’re one of the people in the Foundation that made the most progress of … pretty much anyone. What was your mindset when you signed up? What was the mentality that you had going into the course? Carl: Well, I set some rules for myself. I don’t remember them a 100% right now but … I looked at what I had done in the past and I said I was going to try to just stop doing everything that I had done in the past. Some of those things were to consume too much content. I was only going to consume content that came from the Foundation while I did it. I said to myself that this was my last try and I wasn’t going to try again if it didn’t work. Yeah. Those were the main things. My mindset was like, this is it. That was my mindset when I started. Just to be totally open to new things and trying things in different ways than I would normally. Andy: So, no messing around like this is the last straw I’m in. Carl: Yeah. Yeah. Andy: Tell me about your experience the first month. Where do you … you are working 40, 50, 60-hour week at times? Carl: Yeah, I was working a lot. I was working a lot; the typical hours and then some at night too. At Tesla to do releases and stuff. Yeah, I was doing that. I would work on the Foundation in the morning basically and work on my project there by waking up at 5:30 or so and working from 6:00am to 8:00am and then leaving to go to work. Mostly two hours a day in the morning. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It just depended on the day. Andy: Got it. Tell me about your experience in the first month. Carl: Okay. My first week was crazy because I was totally freaked out. I remember getting in and meeting some people and seeing some people doing things right away. None of the content had even been released or anything. I saw them taking action right away. I guess I’m pretty competitive so I just … I was like, fuck that. I need to do something too. I moved right into trying out idea extraction on dog daycare and used car dealerships. I remember I was like, “Ah, screw it! I’m just going to walk right into one and try it out.” I walked into a dog daycare business nearby, introduced myself and said, “Can you talk to me about your business? Any problems in your business?” and it worked. Yeah. I kind of broke the ice that way but … Yeah, the first week I was totally freaked out. I wasn’t sleeping a lot. I was doing all kinds of things to try to get myself to sleep. I was just super nervous and uncomfortable. Yeah. That all changed when I started going through some of the mindset content. Andy: What changed? Carl: Well, I kind of … because that had been something I hadn’t even considered to pay attention to and ended up being what I … the most I got out of the whole process was awareness. Being aware of what you’re feeling and what you’re going through. Yeah, just paying attention to that. If you pay attention to it, you can do things that will help you to let it go and get over it. I remember learning that through some of the content and immediately starting to feel better and then learning to reverse and beliefs that I had that were negative, in order to make myself a lot more effective in the two hours that I had in the morning. Just making sure that if these are the things that I have to do today, it’s getting me closer to my goals, it’s getting me closer to creating my product. What are the things that are making me hesitate to move forward and just trying to address those one by one. Learning to do that was the biggest thing I’ve done out of the whole thing. Andy: Do you remember the first ‘aha’ that you had that created that awareness for you? What was the thing? Make it really concrete for people who are listening who might not understand the content to the level that you do. Carl: I think the very first thing was … I was on my lunch break at Tesla, I had this weird feeling in my stomach, pretty much the whole first part of the Foundation. I had a feeling because I thought that this could be a scam and I could be not … I could have just been wasting my time and my energy and my money on it. I was really worried about that. I was also concerned about making calls to strangers and asking them questions. Every morning kind of freaked me out. Andy: Uh-huh. Carl: Other people, I didn’t want to be annoying. Those were the things that were bothering me. Because of that, you know, if any of the people listening, like try to make a call or try to do something or they’re nervous about something, they have that feeling. For different people, it feels differently. But for me it was, like … it’s weird in my stomach, I don’t eat a lot and I lose sleep over it. That’s how I was feeling. I noticed it and what I … the ‘aha’ moment was just basically hearing you and Dane talking about how bad is normal and if you pay attention to it and focus on why it’s there. Why it’s there is basically because you’re trying to protect yourself from … maybe a bad experience you have in the past or something like that. So, just focusing on it. For me and then waiting five minutes, made it completely go away. The feeling went away. I’ve never experience that before. That was pretty great. Andy: Oh, wow. Carl: Yeah. Andy: That was like the first big ‘aha’ for you. When did you first start making progress? Carl: Right after that. That was the first thing I did. I hadn’t reversed any limiting beliefs or anything at that point. Right after that I started just taking way more action because I wasn’t as scared to do it. Andy: Hmm. Carl: I was emailing a lot of people. I was cold calling people, like an animal. I was just … I didn’t even care. I was still not on the Physical Therapy market; I was still on used car dealerships which I dropped eventually but it was kind of practice for me. Yeah. I just remember having lists and going through making 20 or even 50 cold calls in a morning until somebody would talk to me. Yeah. That was where things started to shift. I just was able to just go at that point. Andy: Because that feeling was removed. That like … Carl: It wasn’t completely removed but at least I knew what was there and why it was there and that made me feel better about it. Andy: Got it. Got it. So, you still had the feeling. You still had that (crosstalk) Carl: [Inaudible 00:17:17] let’s say it was reduced. Andy: Cool. Carl: Yeah. Andy: Cool. Carl: Feel like it’s always [inaudible 00:17:22], you know. Andy: Why didn’t you stick … How many niches did you go through? Carl: Four. Andy: When you switched niches, why did you switch? Carl: The first two I looked at is practice. I had no intention of keeping them because [Inaudible 00:17:45] I hadn’t deliberately selected them. I just picked them out of the blue. The next couple that I chose, we’re kind of using the framework taught in the Foundation plus some other rules I made up for myself. So, it was a much more calculated decision when I chose the second two which were [inaudible 00:18:04] and Physical Therapy practices. Andy: Got it. What month in the Foundation are you right now? Month one, month … Carl: When I did that? Andy: Yeah. Carl: That was still in the first month. Andy: So, you went through all four niches in the first month? Carl: Yeah. The first two I went through them like two weeks. Andy: Yup. Carl: Maybe less. In the next two I tried for maybe one more week and then … Once I talked to a couple of physical therapy practice owners, it was just like … I knew that’s what I wanted to be doing so I stuck with … Andy: How did you know? Carl: I mean … I had an experience with them in the past. I had an experience with Physical Therapy getting over an injury when I was younger. It was a great experience talking to them. It mattered to me. I really liked what they were doing. I clicked with them. We had the same interests in some cases so it made it easier for me to talk to them and I just really enjoyed talking to them. I think they’re good people that have a good amount of stuff in common with me. That’s why I stuck with them. Andy: Got it. How did you come across the idea for ClinicMetrics? Carl: Basically I was doing idea extraction. I had come across a slew of ideas. I don’t remember which call it was or how many calls in it was. It was probably maybe 15 calls in or so, maybe eight. I don’t know. When I first heard this idea, somebody talking about it, I do remember the first time I heard somebody bring it up. I didn’t really understand it. When I had more and more people bring it up, I realize that it was … something viable. Andy: (Crosstalk) Go ahead. Carl: Go ahead. Andy: No, you go ahead. Carl: Yeah. I heard one idea which was a better electronic medical record system. It’s something that there are a lot of are ready and … I didn’t even want to choose something right away. I wanted to do a lot of calls and figure out … and find a lot of ideas. Once I got good at it, over … after probably the first five to six calls I was pretty good at … at idea extraction. By the time I was done I had eight validated ideas and I chose this one. Andy: Wow. That’s so fascinating to me going from … because so many people have a hard time coming up with ideas to having a point where you had eight to choose from. Carl: Yeah. I don’t know. I found a few things that helped me get there. Yeah. I think one of the main things for me was talking … I kind of was able to figure out who the right people to talk to and who the wrong people were. I kind of just dismissed people altogether that were just not the right people to talk to because I didn’t want to waste their time. Andy: Who are the right people to talk to? Carl: The best people in the industry, those are the ones you want to talk to. I had several calls with people who are just kind of … getting by and wanted to run their … to see patients and stuff. You can tell who they are by hearing things like them complaining about stuff that they can’t control. Things like that. The other end of the spectrum is people in the industry that are wanting to make the entire industry better and have planned ideas as to how to do that. If you get a couple of those people, they will tell you three, five ideas on one 30-minute call. Because they know everything that’s going on and they’re focused on improvement. Andy: How do you find them? Carl: It took me a while to figure that. You can find them randomly by just calling people but … what I found was the people that are doing more than just running a physical therapy practice, tend to be those types of people. If they were speakers, if they were in a seminar company, if they sold anything else, they tended to be a pretty good business person so they were awesome people to talk to. Plus, they’re all friends with each other. Once you find one you usually find three or four. Andy: Funny how that works. Carl: Yeah. Andy: Tell me about the person you found and how they helped you. Carl: I found a few. I found a few of those people. The first one was … he’s name was Chad Madden. He’s in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Near where I grew up, sort of. Yeah. I found him randomly. And he introduced me to a lot of really cool people. Andy: How do you find them randomly? Just calling? Carl: No, I was emailing. I had a VA gathering emails for me over … just basically searching Google maps for a Physical Therapy practices, gathering emails. I was emailing people that way. That’s how I found them. That one is totally random and then he introduced me to ten people. Those ten people were all awesome. Andy: Why did he introduce you to ten people? Carl: I’m not a 100% sure. At first I didn’t know why but I think he did that because … going into the calls I always put people first. I really try to help them in any way that I can. I try to find out what they’re trying to do and what their problems are in their business. If I had any way to help people through stuff immediately when I was able to talk to them on the phone, I would tell them and they really appreciated that. I was brutally honest about what I was trying to do and they got a kick out of it. I even told them … Oh yeah, I hired somebody in India to scrape emails to find you, that’s how I found you. Andy: (Laughs) Carl: They would crack up and they … we would have a good relationship from then on out. Chad is an awesome guy. I talk to him regularly still. Yeah. Andy: You met Chad via email. At what point did … [inaudible 00:25:26] what ClinicMetrics does. Can you just give us like the quick little two second overview for people who don’t know? Carl: Yeah. Essentially it’s business intelligence for physical therapy practices. It helps them manage their business metrics so that they can see exactly what’s going on in their business in dashboards and reports really quickly and easily. Andy: How did you end up with this idea? What questions were you asking or how did the conversation evolve? Carl: How did I find this problem? Andy: Yeah, this pain. Carl: I’m pretty sure the first person that told me about it didn’t call it anything. He had no name for it. He said something about practice management. I was digging in and just kind of like … why is it a problem. He was like, “Well, I don’t have any way to see what’s going on in my business. I don’t know what’s going on in my business. I don’t know which of my clinicians or employees are doing a good job and which ones aren’t. I don’t know exactly what my cost per patient is so I can’t negotiate rates. I don’t know which of my marketing efforts are working and which ones aren’t. I asked them how he was tracking things now in Excel. Sending Excel spreadsheets around and using some other really old crappy tools. I just kind of immediately realized at that point that there was a better way to do it. Yeah. Andy: How far are you in the Foundation when you get the idea? Carl: Month two probably. Andy: December or November. Carl: Maybe. November. Andy: November? Carl: Yeah. Andy: Cool. See, at month one, month two. Right at that cost. Cool. If I give you this idea and then what? Carl: I had that idea and I didn’t choose it right away. I didn’t choose it right away because at the time I wasn’t sure if it was valid or if enough people needed it for me to want to build it. I needed to make sure it was a good idea. I basically … I took things a little differently than everybody else. A lot of people find one idea and then they try to validate that idea by focusing on it. For me, I just basically kept things wide open when I talk to everybody. Get as many ideas as I can. If they happen to bring that one up again, great. That’s why I kept going till like 32 calls before I chose this idea. Andy: Wow. I don’t know you had that many. So, you’re gathering all the ideas. Why did you choose this one? Carl: It was a smaller amount of scope so it was pretty easy to build. I thought it was … the price point was going to be pretty good for it. That was another reason. But the main thing is … Andy: (Crosstalk) Carl: … a $120 a month per location. Most of these people have … most of my target has several locations. Generally five or six. I didn’t exactly know that at the time when I chose this but the main reason I chose it was I saw the biggest problems in the industry and the biggest things that the people … maybe the people that aren’t the experts giving me the idea but the other people in the market … the main things they complained about were … that their reimbursements were falling and … they had no way to fix that. The reason they complain about that is because they don’t know how to make things more efficient in their business. They don’t know a whole lot about their business. This tool, to me, really meant a way to help them stay in business and eventually thrive. I thought that was really awesome. I know it’s … It’s really a first to market-type product. There’s not really anything out there like it. I wasn’t attracted to that. Honestly, that makes it harder on me but I just really thought it was cool to be able to help out people and make them run a better business. Andy: Yeah. Not doing niche sites. Carl: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Andy: So you get the idea. Well, you have a list of ideas. You decide on this one. What do you do after that? Carl: I chose this one and immediately moved forward with designing the interface and creating some information on it. We call the Foundation like a little information packet which is kind of like a sales packet to show to people, so that I can pre-sell them. Yeah, designing the interface went well for me and it was pretty easy for me because that’s my background in general, right? Andy: Mm-hmm. Carl: I did that pretty quickly and I showed it to my … not my customers but the people that were asking for it, I showed it to them. Got feedback and then kept iterating it until I felt like I had it nailed pretty good. I used that to get my first sale. Andy: How many people were interested? Carl: Initially? Andy: Yeah. Carl: Before I … I don’t know. Five or so? Maybe three to five before I started designing it. Andy: How many iterations did you go through before you got your first pre-sell? Carl: Three, I think. Andy: Three? Tell me about the process. Basically, so far, we’ve spent a lot of time cold calling, cold emailing; met some influential people, got a list of ideas, chose the idea that’s going to have the most impact and probably most income potential for you. Mocked up what the software would actually look like. You didn’t write any code, you did this in keynote, is that right? Carl: Yeah, keynote. Keynotopia. Andy: Use [inaudible 00:32:33] Keynotopia and built rough mock-ups of how it will function. Showed it to people, started getting feedback, now it’s time to ask for money. Tell me about that process. Carl: Yeah. This happened … I designed the interface about the first version and what [inaudible 00:32:54] a couple of days, maybe less and then … I refined it over maybe a week or two. It was December, towards the end of December when I created a new information pack which kind of figured out my pricing and stuff to get ready for my first sales call. I basically set out my sales call to kind of push myself to get this stuff together before. Just to give myself a deadline. I worked on it over Christmas break and came back. That call was like in the beginning of January. What did I do? I learned about all the reasons that … all the pains that the customers were experiencing or the prospects were experiencing that were related to my product. I mapped them through to the features that were going to help solve those pains and the benefits that these people were going to have if they use the product. I kind of did that. I also … Andy: Can you give me an example before you move on? Can you tie that to like … like what’s one fear or frustration people had and what’s the feature and benefit? Carl: Yeah, sure. An easy one is … I don’t know which employees are doing a good job and which ones aren’t. I don’t know how to … which ones need help and which ones I should give a high-five or give some credit. That’s the pain. The feature that’s addressing it is basically sort of a reporter dashboard that shows the metrics broken down by each employee that are important to this person. They can exactly see what’s going on with each person. They can see it together and then work towards goals. That’s one example. Yeah, it was … it was both costing them money because they could be wasting visits and it’s also bad for the patient because the patients may not be given as much attention as they can if the employee isn’t paying attention to certain things. All of that put together just builds up a lot of frustration in practice center’s mind. Yeah. That’s one example. Andy: Beautiful. Beautiful. Mocked it all up, map the pains that the customer is experiencing to each feature and benefit of the software that you’re building. Then you go to sell it. Carl: Yeah. When I went to sell it, this was first time. This is another big moment for me, getting to sell this. The first time I’ve ever really sold anything in my life. Craigslist and it was … For some reason I like to choose like the biggest people right away so I went for the biggest customer with ten locations. Yeah. I went through the process to sell it to him by talking him through what it did, showing it to him. Reiterating the reasons that he mentioned he was interested in the first place. Walking him through the benefits and price anchoring which is basically saying how much money that this is costing them in hours or in patients that didn’t show up or things like that. You’re able to kind of list all those things out and show them how much it’s really going to save them. I went through this long … what seemed like to me was an extremely awkward phone call. To me it felt that way. Because I was relentless to go through every single thing that I had written down in terms of all the reasons it was going to help him before I let him do anything else. In the end, he said he appreciated that and I was shocked and it worked out. I remember I was so freaking excited. I was calling a bunch of my friends on my way. This is before I went to Tesla in the morning. Andy: Like 7:00am. Carl: Yeah, exactly. I’m super pumped driving to work and calling my friends and telling them what I did. Yeah, it was awesome. Andy: Walk me through … Well, first, tell me about … what was the offer that you did? You didn’t have a product till this point. There is no software that was built. What was the offer that you gave him? Carl: It was pretty straightforward. I have a better way of doing it now but it was pretty straight forward. I basically said, this software isn’t ready yet but this is the pricing that I’m going to have. I showed him the pricing and how much it would cost him and then I showed him that. If you sign up early, you’re going to get 20% off for life. All I need from you is three months payment in advance. I had him pay me what I would be for him for three months in advance and it’s all going … the product would be ready in May. Yeah. That was basically the offer. You have to pay three months in advance and for that I’m going to give you 20% off of that price you just saw which is going to be my ultimate pricing. Andy: Was there any resistance to that? Carl: Yeah. He said it seemed high but then he just said yes. (Laughs) Andy: (Laughs) What did you do when he said it seems high? Carl: Huh? Andy: What did you do when he said it seemed high? Carl: Nothing. I just sat there. Andy: You didn’t say anything? Carl: No. Andy: And so he said, “I think it seems high,” and you just sat there and I’m sure there was this long awkward just … Carl: Yeah. I think I was thinking about something to say and then he just said, you know, that I appreciate the way you went through all this. You’re really detailed and you remembered it was my daughter’s birthday or something. Andy: Oh really. Carl: Yeah. Andy: Oh wow. Carl: He said those things and he said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” But before we do it, I have to make sure you’re a real person so you have to meet this person I know in San Diego which was really weird. But that happened and that was kind of cool. Andy: Oh. So he was like, “Okay, I need to know you’re not some scam artist that …” Carl: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andy: How much was he writing you a check for? Carl: Twenty-six hundred bucks I think. Andy: Twenty-six hundred. Carl: Yeah, 2600. Andy: Twenty-six hundred for a product that doesn’t exist. This is incredible, man. I can only imagine how incredible … how crazy you felt going to work that day. What did you do next? Carl: Sold it to more people. Same way. Decided that once I got … I decided once I got three people to pay me, it was going to be worth it. Yeah, over the course of the next month or so, I sold it to three people and then I pulled the trigger on development. Andy: How were the other three conversations? Carl: The second one was even faster. You know how I said the first one was long and awkward, the second one was going to be long and awkward and the guy just cut me off and was like, “I want it.” Yeah. And then the last one was also … [inaudible 00:41:50] actually that guy I met in [inaudible 00:41:52]. Had a conference which I went to to get my picture to send to the first presale. You know what I was saying, like meet somebody I know. Andy: Yeah. Carl: One of the people I met through this whole process calling and talking to people when I was at the conference was just walking me around, introducing me to loads of people and introduced me to somebody that just wanted it immediately. Yeah. That got my presale that day. Yeah. Andy: Three customers and how much was your total in presales? Carl: I think 3800 before I started building. Andy: Thirty-eight hundred before you started building. What month was that? When you had 3800? Carl: I think it was the end of January, something like that. Andy: End of January? Carl: Maybe February. I can’t remember. It was either the end of January or February, some [inaudible 00:43:00]. Andy: Let’s say February. I mean, still that’s like … going from November with no idea; December, getting the idea, mocking stuff up and then having the sales by February. You’re just cruising man. Carl: I could do it all in two weeks right now. Andy: Really? Carl: I think so. Andy: I love hearing that. I love hearing that. So, February, so you’ve got $3800 in presales, three customers, now what? Carl: So, I pulled the trigger on development. I started building it and … while I was building I continued working on getting a few sales. Andy: Yeah, but you’re working full time. How do you find somebody to … did you find … who built it for you? Carl: The developer is a friend. Like I said, I kind of managed developers for a living. I have a lot of … and I’m in San Francisco, I have a lot of very talented friends. I picked a guy who I’m really good friends with and work with and I should talk to him about the idea and he was psyched about it. We ended up deciding to do … I preferred to pay him in cash so that anyone thinks it got weird but he was really [inaudible 00:44:31]. That’s what we ended up doing. I didn’t have to pay for development at all out of pocket. Andy: What was the terms you ended up with? Carl: Essentially 10% of revenue. Andy: Nice. Carl: Yeah. Andy: It’s so awesome being in a position where you presale stuff in advance. Because developers just get really excited about it, it seems like. Carl: Yeah, I mean, I was going … climbing, rock climbing heading into our gym. As he’s climbing the wall I was just telling him what I was working on and it was hilarious. He was just really excited about it. That was before I even got the sales and then a few weeks later I was like, “Okay, I’m ready to go. Let’s do it.” Andy: Let’s say that starts February or March or so. You’re still focusing on selling, he’s developing. What do you spend the next two months doing? Carl: Well, I mean, when you wireframe a product just to sell it to somebody, it’s probably not going to have everything it needs in terms of … it’s not going to be ready to be developed. You have to do some more work. I spent a lot of that time focused on managing that and communicating the progress with the customers. As we were building, getting feedback from the customers, I spend a little bit more time doing some selling but I really didn’t … hardly spend any time doing that. At that period, things got really busy for me at Tesla. I kind of was really only able to focus on development a little bit more of preselling. Andy: When did [inaudible 00:46:41] go live? Carl: We went live like April 15th. Andy: Got it. Any hiccups? How did it go? Carl: Honestly, I’ve done … I don’t know how many product launches I’ve done. More than ten and this was the smoothest I’ve ever had. It’s probably because it’s the most recent and because I cared about it the most because it was mine. Andy: Yeah. Carl: But I’ll never forget like … releasing to the first customer, it being my own product was like such a big day for me and in my developer. We sat together and did it and then we went out for a celebration dinner. It was awesome. Andy: And that was April 15th. Incredible, man. For you, I know you reversed the whole bunch of beliefs for all of these to happen. Tell me about that. Carl: Yes. So that happened … I’d say that happened right before I started … right before I chose the idea or maybe right after I chose the idea to move forward. I notice … we had limiting belief, reversal content. It was pretty basic. I didn’t think much of it and just didn’t do any of that right away until I started noticing in some calls that Dane or you would pay close attention to really how people were feeling first. Ninety percent of the time is when people had problems. It was really because it was a mental block. I was like, man, this stuff is really important so I’m going to sit down and see what my mental blocks are and reverse them all. Literally that day, I think I reversed seven in many hours. It was like a weekend [inaudible 00:48:38]. Man, there was a lot of them. Andy: Yeah. Carl: I can give you a few examples. Andy: Yeah, please do. Carl: Yeah. Some that were more tactical which was … I felt like I was being an annoying sales … like an annoying sales guy on the phone and people were annoyed by me. I was able to get over that and when I got over that, my calls went even better. How I was able to get over that was … if you really think … like is that really true? I thought back on some of the good calls that I had. Those people are really excited to talk to me. It was because I was trying to help them and they believed that. That was when I reversed. Another more personal one was like … that I was really afraid of not failing but having other people see me fail. I would … maybe not do certain things because I was afraid of other people seeing me fail or I wouldn’t share things and kind of created this weird world where I was doing all these work. Andy: Yeah. Carl: Like undercover. (Laughs) Andy: (Laughs) Carl: Without telling anybody. Getting over that made me feel good and I told my friends about it. They were really supportive and it was awesome. But then the biggest one, I’d say, like in the most obvious was like … say you start to build a product like I did this metrics [inaudible 00:50:08]. I came across this guy that I wanted to get in contact with that I felt might be able to help me sell the product because he has consulting business and it’s actually a pretty big company. They said that they … What happened was I didn’t know the person and I tried to get in contact with him and he wouldn’t answer me. A friend of mine knew him so they went to see him, Chad Madden. He met the guy and told him about me. The guy said, “Oh, the reason I’m not getting back to him is we’re going to build that on our own anyway.” Before being able to reverse beliefs like this, I probably would have just said, “Oh, I can’t do this. There’s somebody with a way bigger reach than me and way more money … and a way bigger business that could just build this and just dominate.” What I was able to do was think more about … is that really true? Is that what’s going to happen if I build this? What it made me realize was … Instead of just giving up, I realize that, hey, I’m going to build better software than this person because I’m good at software and this person knows nothing about it. Even if they do create awesome software, there’s still plenty of room for me in the market. Last, I just realized that … man, how bad would have that been for me to just stop at that point, right? Andy: Yeah. Carl: But instead I was able to get over that. That’s what really … that moment … And I felt good about it too and that moment made me kind of realize that this is really important. Till this day I still pay really close attention to that stuff. Andy: Hmm. So cool man. Yeah. At this point … you just begin to realize that if there’s competition, it’s a good thing. It’s just more validation that the idea needs to be built. Carl: Yeah. Isn’t that hilarious? It’s like … most people you talk to they’ll find something. It’d be like, “Oh, that’s already been done.” Now, your whole mindset’s changed toward, “Man, what a good thing.” I came across this [inaudible 00:52:33] I was about build it and this guy, who’s been in the market forever, said he’s going to build it too. Like, wow! That means there’s a market for this, right? Andy: Yeah. Let’s talk about … Carl: (Crosstalk). Andy: Go ahead. What’s that? Carl: Now … do is beat them. Andy: (Laughs) Let’s talk about … Where do you think the Foundation helped you most? Carl: Right with what we just talked about. I feel like the process was great, however, getting over these mental blocks for me made me so much more effective and so much more clear in what I wanted to do. Why I was doing it. Just got everything else out of the way so that I could get done what I wanted to get done, done and I did it. Yeah. By far that’s what the most I got out of it. That and … meeting really awesome people. Those are the two biggest things I’ve gotten out of it and the process is probably third. Yeah, honestly. Andy: I love you’re in that actually. (Laughs) Let’s [inaudible 00:53:56] the block thing a little bit more. Let’s talk about you quitting your job. Most people thought, and probably at some level might still, that you’re insane. Carl: Yeah. They thought I was insane. I don’t know. That was the big deal. Andy: Just kind of. Carl: Yeah. That was a really big deal. Yeah. At that point I had already had product up and running. I had people using it; they were liking it. I was at the biggest experience. I had planned … I had this vision in my head that, yeah, I’m going to work at Tesla until October or something like that. For some reason I had this mind in October I think it was because was when I would have invested half of my stock to leave and go on this thing full time. However, I was really unhappy. I was more and more unhappy. Well, I was in the middle of Foundation, I was pretty excited, I was doing something new. I was focused and then all of a sudden, something changed to where … well, I have this product and now I’m in the middle of building it and that’s all I want to focus on. All Tesla was doing is taking me away from that. So I resented it and it made me do worse work at Tesla and worse work on my product. It just made everything bad. Yeah. I was in a pretty bad spot. And then I went to Vegas. We had … you and I had a really amazing talk about it that caught me thinking about things differently. That was definitely a life changing conversation. Andy: What clicked where you started thinking about it differently? What made you go from … Because what happened for the people that aren’t … Carl and I basically … well, you were on your hot seat is when it all started. He had an incredible hot seat and everybody just kind of blown away because Carl has made so much progress. I don’t know if you remember this but the last question I asked you, right as time was up, I was like, “So, when are you going to quit your job?” and then everybody kind of laughed and he just went off the stage. Then later, we kind of sat down and we’re like, “No, but seriously?” Carl: It’s true. Honestly, I totally forgot about that. Andy: (Laughs) So, we have this. We talk for 45 minutes or so and then at the end of it, Carl came out and announced to everyone in the room, in that moment, that in four weeks he’s leaving Tesla and everyone will hold him to it. What shifted so greatly for you to go from October, whenever, to … okay, now? Carl: Man, so … there were a few things that did but, like, there is one thing that I remember really clearly about the conversation that was like … I was there, we were having a good time talking. I was meeting … we were all hanging out. The whole weekend was really great and I had to leave early because I needed to get back to work. Right before I was about to leave is when we had this conversation. When we were talking, you said, “Think about yourself a year from today. You’re back here in Vegas with the next class and you’re still working at Tesla and you’re still doing the same things. Everything is the same. How do you feel?” I imagined myself in that position a year from then without having left and still being there. It felt awful. Thinking about that felt awful because … I knew how it felt for me now and that wasn’t going to change for that long period of time and looking back on it, like having to experience that for another full year. All of the things that I would have … All of the things that I could have done over that year if I had left that I couldn’t get done because I was still there and it was still eating up my time and I was still just not in a very good mood and not happy. All of those things put together and that feeling building up just made it so … so obviously that it was the right choice despite having money being left on the table because I had options that have invested and things like that. It didn’t really matter. What really came down to us, my time, is worth more than anything else. It’s worth more than anything. Even if I didn’t have a product or anything else, I probably … I think I still would have left. Yeah. I think I would have still left. Because I was … I felt confident that I knew I could probably … even if everything were taken away from me, I could probably rebuild something again. What’s the worst thing that could happen is really … I spent an awesome year learning a lot and I fail and start over. Yeah. It really changed everything. Yeah. Andy: Yeah. It was so fun. When we did this, at the end of the conversation, Carl was clear, “Okay, I’m going to quit my job.” I was like, “Okay, when?” “Four weeks or June 15th or something. Carl: Yeah. Andy: June 15th or something. I’ll put my two weeks in that day.” I was like, “Okay. Let’s try something [inaudible 01:00:20].” I brought up my email and I was like, “Hey, just … write an email to your boss as if you’re resigning.” So, he puts his boss’s email like resigning. It was funny because it was like two sentences. “Hey, thanks for letting me work here but this is my two weeks …” very simple and straight to the point. I was like, “Okay, great.” I saved it in my drafts folder and I was like, “Okay, great. If you don’t quit your job on June 15th, on June 16th your boss is going to get this email from me.” And then Carl went and announced it to everybody in the room and it totally anchored it. Like in that moment there was no going back for you. Carl: No, there wasn’t. When I got home I was like, “Man … maybe this was a rash decision. Maybe it wasn’t the right decision. Maybe I should think about it some more.” What I did was I sat down and did the whole … went through my whole process that I learned of reversing beliefs. I kind of thought about things rationally again on my own and on, probably, two sheets of paper when I had finished. The craziest thing was … when I looked at at myself after I got back I was even more clear. Because I looked it all, I have all my direction, my direction in life written on a piece of paper in the first thing. If you read the whole thing, it’s all about wanting to be on my own and being able to do things freely for myself. To be able to spend my time with people I like and to help people. It just made it so obvious that it was like, what the hell was I doing there to begin with. Honestly, I came back, I worried a little bit and then I got over even more and then I was just ready. I almost didn’t want to wait the whole time. I think I ended up being one day earlier or something. Andy: Yeah. Carl: But not early. I was trying to get some health insurance before I started. Yeah, it was crazy. [Inaudible 01:02:33] on me too really like, “So, the excitement probably wear off. How are you feeling now?” Andy: Yeah. Like the holy-shit-what-did-I-just-do feeling. When you make a decision in a peak state it’s like … you always have to come down afterwards. Dude, this interview has been incredible. It’s just so fun to see step by step exactly what you did and how it all worked for you. I love hearing how much … we’re starting to write copy again. One thing that’s coming up is like if you see people who make exponential growth, it has nothing to do with strategies and tactics. It’s all the internal shifts that happen first. I love how you made all of the internal shifts in November and the ripple effect that it’s caused for you ever since then. Carl: Yeah, and it’s still going. It’s still going. Andy: Four people [inaudible 01:03:38] … we got a handful of people on here; quite a bit actually. If they have any interest in joining the Foundation, what would you tell them? Carl: Well, I think if they are people who are serious about wanting to make a change and they’re dedicated to putting the time in and having an open mind while they’re there. Not shutting things off. Open to trying … open to opening themselves up, there’s no better thing that they could do. There really isn’t. It’s an amazing experience. This has been one of the best years in my life. All the things that have changed and really getting to the point where I’m doing what I want to do with my life. Yeah. Anybody can do that too. I hope that what I’ve shared can help people realize that. Help them either just do it on their own or join out then and be a part of it. Andy: Beautiful man. If people want to get in touch with you, where can they do that at? Carl: Well, I’ll put a website up at, and they can reach me from there. Or I’m on Twitter @cmattiola. Basically, everything, C-M-A-T-T-I-O … shit. C-M-A-T-T-I-O-L-A. For Twitter it’s that, for Gmail it’s that, for everything it’s that. They can reach out to me that way. I’m totally open to talk to anybody that has any interest in talking about this. Andy: Beautiful. So if you have questions or anything, feel free to reach out to Carl. I’ll put all of that information in the show notes at Carl, thank you so much man. This has been amazing. Carl: Yeah. Thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. 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