SFN167: Siamak Farah - Building A Team That’s 10% Human, 90% Technology
Siamak Farah is the founder of Info Street (now SkyDesktop), an in-browser cloud app platform that allows small business owners to access, manage, and use all their business apps in one place. Siamak has had an amazing career working his way up at multiple software companies, including Steve Job’s Next Computers. With the knowledge and experience he acquired, it’s no wonder that he now runs his very own successful software company.
In this interview, Sia shares his journey of how he learned every facet of running a software company, from his time at Next Computers to starting his own web-based operating system. Sia gives us his insights on automation, being ahead of “the cloud” curve, and implementing the lattice management structure to empower his team’s passion.
In This Interview I Ask:
- 2:54 - When did Info Street originally start?
- 3:47 - Tell us a little bit about what you were doing before you started Info Street in 1994.
- 4:46 - What was your role at Next [Computers]?
- 10:03 - What did a Next computer cost at that time and who are you selling them to?
- 12:43 - So when you started Info Street 1994, where was your head at, in terms of what problem are you going out there and looking to solve or what sort of a solution we're looking to provide to people?
- 16:12 - Give me some examples of the study the type of stuff that you guys were automating.
- 17:48 - So take us through a little bit about like the-the progress of Info Street as it evolved.
- 22:15 - What was it like when you started telling people in `95 that the best operating system was going to be no operating system at all?
- 24:39 - How do you sustain that passion when things are getting tough?
- 28:34 - there's a certain percentage of your employees that are human and then for the rest of it, you employ technology. Let’s talk a little bit about that.
- 31:34 - what have we got going on in July for Info Street?
- 33:40 - what are some of the must-haves in there that every small business needs?
Know How to Speak the Language of Your Staff
Prior to starting his own software company, Siamak worked for other software companies to learn the multiple facets of running a software company effectively. Having that base understanding of different roles in the company gave Sia the experience to manage his own employees.
“I have a policy of hiring people smarter than me and always listening to them, but nowadays everything's gotten so detailed that when you hire people smarter than you and you want to listen to them, if you don't have a base understanding, you can't listen to them. You don't know.”
Railroad Track Your Processes
Info Street was growing too fast for its small team, but not fast enough to raise funding. Siamak then decided to implement automation, or as he likes to call it “railroad tracking”, 90% of his company to better serve his clients and increase revenue.
“Whatever we're doing twice we are going to automate, and whatever process that other people [would] have to use to do, we are going to go ahead and automate that and basically write it down.”
Pro Tip: Write down the processes of ALL repetitive, tedious tasks that you do for your clients, and AUTOMATE IT.
Have Passion and Stick with It
Many people think they can go work for themselves, but they forget the benefits of an established organization (things included such as HR, legal, and sales). Eight out of ten small businesses go belly-up in the first year because of passion missing. You have to have the passion to see it through. “You have to go through the passion and not get slowed down with things that seemed more important than the bigger goal.”. It’s easier said than done. If you have a passion you will succeed, but if you don't have the passion, within a few months, you’re going to miss that paycheck.
Empower Employees with Lattice Structure Management
The typical pyramid structure management has a top, middle and bottom. Lattice structure management is characterized by self-management and has no hierarchy or defined leadership. Every point is in support of every other point. The person closest to the problem is the one that's going to make a decision.
“So I may be the CEO of the company, but for instance, if the janitor comes in and says our vacuum cleaner is broken, it shouldn’t be my decision to decide which vacuum cleaner to buy.”
When you empower people, you actually give them passion. If you delegate properly everybody has their own area, and then we all work in unison together, you get very nice results with very little tension.
Build Your Business on “The Cloud”
“The internet is a great democratizer.” - Siamak Farah
Thanks to “the cloud”, some things that were only available to the large businesses ten, fifteen years ago are now available to everybody. Nowadays you could work from home or work from some of these shared office spaces or whatnot. You don't really need a secretary. You could answer your own phone, voicemail, whatever. Plus Info Street / SkyDesktop provides various packages of the common tools every small business needs to foster start and grow their business.
Starting From Nothing 167:
Frank: Alright so today we've got Siamak Farah on. It rolls smoothly off the tongue whenever I remember to say it correctly. Sia, I'm really excited to have you on. As you guys heard in the intro that you guys just heard, you guys are going to hear some really interesting stuff. Sia’s had an amazing career and we're going to dig into his product Info Street today. Sia welcome.
Sia: Thank you. I'm glad to be here
Frank: So why don't we just dive right in, right? Cut the pleasantries and actually for those listening to the recording, Sia and I had about 10 minutes of pleasantries leading up to this, including discussing how we're going to have a fireside chat. We were debating whether or not we're going to have it in LA, so it's going to be a sweaty fireside chat or in Chicago where I'm at. I think we ended up in Chicago.
Sia: That's right. One of my favorite cities.
Frank: Beautiful. Ok, so Sia you've got kind of a long history in this space so tell us first when did Info Street originally start?
Siamak: Info Street started in 1994 just when the internet was becoming more famous. I mean I've been using the internet for years, but the average populist didn’t know what the internet is so...in 1994, was really when the big turn happened, and after that you saw the web grow; and then you know, in the late nineties you saw all the dot-com era and all I kind of stuff so that was the pivotal year for it and that's when we started Info Street.
Frank: Beautiful so we're going to dive in and spend the majority of time today talking about the progression of Info Street, and at the end of the interview we’re actually going to send you guys to a special package, but before we dive into that Sia tell us a little bit about what you were doing before you started Info Street in 1994.
Siamak: Sure. Before Info Street, in the immediate like five years before that, I was working at Next Computers which was a company that Steve Jobs had founded with a few co-founders after he had left Apple; and it was probably some of the best five years of my life. I've met a lot of quality people. To this day, we are very much close with one another. We have an email list and we interact with one another. We’re on Linkedin and Facebook and everything with one another. It was really...Steve had acted as a magnet to get probably the best of the industry all in one place, under one roof, and I you know we not only gave it our all, but we also learned all of us, and it was really an experience that is unparalleled in my life.
Frank: That's awesome. What was your role at Next [Computers]?
Siamak: So I started. It’s really interesting because at Next I kept on moving up and within the five years I had five or six different roles. Prior to Next, I was working at a company called Micro Stat and prior to that I was working at a company called Vertigo.
My life story is kind of interesting. When I was twenty-two, I decided that someday I wanted to have a software company, and I decided that I need to know all the facets of a software company before I could open up one. So I was starting at Vertigo. I started as a network administrator and then a programmer, then I managed programmers, then I went ahead and, you know, managed the field operation for support, and all that kind of stuff. So I learned a lot of that, and then I went to Micro Stat and I went ahead and grew - it was a small public company in Vancouver, BC - and I grew to be the COO of that. I sat on the board, understood what the finances were and everything like that so through all that I was growing very very rapidly.
However what I was lacking was a sales and marketing experiences, and that figured out if I went ahead and learn how to do sales marketing that I could definitely have my company and know every single thing about the company. Back then in my mind, that was an absolute requirement, and it I've actually helped me quite a bit to be brutally honest.
So then I went to Next and I said that, you know, I want to come work for you in sales and marketing and they said, “but you're a COO of a company you're not going to want to be the bottom man of the totem pole”, and I literally remember saying in the interview that “I might be the best player in a little league team, but I want to go to the major league and be the worst player and move up”; and so basically I joined Next and I did the sales and marketing basically as a technical sales in Vancouver. Then within a year, I moved to the headquarters at Redwood City, California, and I was working on the team that was doing partnerships; did a couple of very very successful projects there. I got a lot of notoriety within the company with that, and then we built the dealer channel as well, then I decided that I actually want to go and do physical sales to learn that; and because of my success in the couple of years prior to that I went to my boss and I said, “I want to do this” and he said, “well you can pretty much write your own ticket because they think that whatever you do you'll do it well”. So I went ahead and I moved to New Jersey at that point, and I became a salesperson there to learn that and in my first year I became the quote unquote rookie of the year and I did more sales than any other rookies.
So I did a bit of that and what happened was then Next went through some tumultuous times and they went ahead and laid off. A lot of people went from hardware business to software business. There were 750 of us and 250 of us, roughly 260, survived. It was really tough for me because I was sitting there with survival guilt. In our office, there was like ten desks, and there was like two people sitting there, and we were both not having anything to do at the time because we're waiting for the product to be ready for software. So I did a little stint and I went somewhere else and ran another small public company, became the president of that, and after like six months of that when Next was ready I called him back and I said I'd love to come back to next but I really want to come back in LA because I want to kind of grow roots here.
They were very nice and they took me back and I was here in LA for a little while. Then when the LA office closed, I needed to basically start something new and that's when I went ahead and started Info Street in 1994. So I gave you a very long story over something that's rather whirlwind, but it kind of may give you an idea that by the time in 1994, when I started the company, I pretty much could do the accounting, I could do graphic arts, I could do the website, I could do programming, I could do sales, I could do marketing, and it felt really good that whenever I hired more staff, I was able to speak their language.
Frank: Yeah so you pretty much have been involved in every single facet of a technology company.
Siamak: I was, which is not possible as your company grows. I have a policy of hiring people smarter than me and always listening to them, but nowadays everything's gotten so detailed that when you hire people smarter than you and you want to listen to them, if you don't have a base understanding, you can't listen to them. You don't know. So that base understanding has helped me grow as a person and infiltrated the company.
Frank: So I've got we're going to dive into interest rate in a big way here. Here's something that I'm wondering about right because in 1994 I was nine years old. Tell me, what did a Next computer cost at that time and who are you selling them to?
Siamak: Okay the Next computer, the typical ones would cost around ten thousand dollars and the developers could get one roughly around five thousand dollars because they were developing applications on it. There were a lot of companies that used it where there was a lot of graphics required and there was a lot of power required. They had some formula where you could grid things together way back when. It was way way ahead of its time. The LA County Sheriff had used it for having their database of imagery net. I don't know the details, but from what I had heard, there were Next computers used in the first Iraq war. They were sort of taking pictures of where the missiles were going to go and-and do really fast processing to a justice. Things like that. It was one of the first computers that had a digital signal processor as part of it. All pretty much very interesting.
Sounding a little bit conceited, but all of the things that you see on your iPhone today and in many places at large, basically had the roots in Next; meaning multimedia email (sound included), the way the whole OS X works. So it's really interesting that in effect, Next became the foundation of what the rebirth of Apple was. Everybody says that Apple bought Next for four hundred million dollars, and I say that Next bought Apple and got paid 400 million dollars for doing that because what happened was after Steve and company bought it, within a year pretty much, if you have let's say fifteen vice presidents from Apple probably more than 10 of them were from Next. They completely revived and revamped the company and the rest is the biggest success story and turnaround story in the history of mankind.
Frank: Absolutely. All right let's dig into Info Street now. So one of the things that I always think about is the ultimate way to boil down a business to its simple core component is a business is started to solve a problem. So when you started info street 1994, where was your head at, in terms of what problem are you going out there and looking to solve or what sort of a solution we're looking to provide to people?
Siamak: Right and actually I'm so glad you said that because there are so many people who are doing it the opposite version, meaning that they develop a solution looking for a problem and they never never ever succeed or if they do it with their a lot of brute force and in a little success rate.
So initially what happened was when the web was becoming more popular. I went to a few meetings and there were some very big companies, multi-billion dollar companies that have like five or ten vice presidents around the room and I would ask them “what do you think the web can do for you?”. They all gave me different answers so I thought that this is an opportunity because I really believed in the growth of the web and the future of the web and everything like that. So I said to myself, this is a great opportunity for us to go ahead and provide information to these people so they can go ahead and take advantage of the web. Therefore I named the company Info Street because back then the web was called “information superhighway” and I called it Info Street like a little corner of it so that's how I did it.
Then we did some consulting and I saw that the problem is a little bit deeper. People would say “okay you're telling us what to do, but we really don't have anybody to do it so can you do it for us”. So the consulting became a bit more of an action and that's when I started to hire staff and solve these problems, but at one point, probably within eight to nine months, I had like five employees and probably had five billion-dollar clients, and we couldn't really service them just with five people. I didn't have the wherewithal and the finances to go hire a lot of people, and back then it was too new to go after VC (venture capital). I basically didn't think that was a viable route at the time. It was too early for us.
So at that point, I turned to my longtime friend automation and I basically decided that whatever we're doing twice we are going to automate, and whatever process that other people have to use to do, we are going to go ahead and automate that and basically write it down. In Info Street we call it “railroad track it”. The logic behind that was that if I tell you to go from Chicago to Detroit, you may have to stop somewhere and ask somebody do I turn left, do I turn right or not, but if there was a railroad track and I put you on it and then you went as fast as you humanly could, then without any guidance you could reach the destination. So we automated and railroad tracked everything to the point that it became quite feasible for us to service all these clients to get more clients, and actually grew the company quite a bit.
Frank: Give me some examples of the study the type of stuff that you guys were automating.
Siamak: Well in the initial sites, we were automating the creation of websites and also monitoring the websites. These automations kept on growing to the point that, let’s say, when a new client will come to us, we would have to make accounts for them and set them up on machines or whatever, and then normally we would tell our clients to come back in two weeks, it will be ready.
Then I challenge the team. I said I want about two weeks to be twenty minutes. Actually, I used the word twenty-two minutes, and twenty-two minutes became the new goal and they did that. Then I went to them and I said twenty-two seconds, and then when I said twenty-two seconds they also rose to the challenge and did that. Part of the whole reason was that it became evident to us that we have to eliminate the humans out of the population, and we need to do all the process that are just tedious and do it automatically because humans would make errors. So in that example, for instance, we went down to twenty-two seconds and when we did that we were able to create automatic sign ups for people so people could go to the website and sign up on their own. We, in effect, automated sales at that point. It really grew very nicely and I'm very very happy about the fact, the approach that we took.
Frank: All right. I love it. So take us through a little bit about like the progress of Info Street as it evolved.
Siamak: So Info Street as it evolved, it was doing consulting, then it did what we called web weaving, web hosting, to create websites for companies. About a year, year and a half after Info Street was started, I was thinking about the problems we had at Next; and the problems we had Next was as follows: that we have this amazing technology, absolutely amazing technology. As I mentioned most of the things we use today still have their roots back to that next step that we were working on. It looked beautiful, it felt beautiful. Everything was perfect about it except that we could not win.
We basically were having our lunch eaten by Microsoft. Back then Microsoft had a Windows 3.1 product and it was not even Windows 95 so it was substantially inferior to what Next step was which was complete graphics and display postscript at six look really beautiful and stock. So I was thinking about that and I ask myself what operating system would beat Windows at the desktop and I came up with this answer of no operating system at all. I thought to myself that we made a mistake that we were competing with Microsoft. We should just ensure that the OS and the device is irrelevant so therefore everything should be run inside of a browser. That thought had basically, it's literally twenty years ago, that thought basically formulated where our company is going, and that is that everything is going to be in a centralized cloud area. Back then the word cloud wasn’t coined or anything like that so it was in a centralized cloud area, and you go through your browser and you access it. Then you don't have to worry about installing software with this version works or not doesn't, or whether this computer is strong enough to handle this process or not. Believe it or not back then these were all the thought processes that you would go need to buy computers to be strong enough to handle CRM and stuff, but with a cloud-based CRM the heavy lifting is in the cloud and all you're doing is your computer is displaying the results for all practical purposes so any old computer will do it. If that computer crashes you could dump it and just go set up the next one and have no downtime. So the whole concept was, what operating system would beat Windows at the desktop and the answer was no operating system at all.
So back in late `95, I went ahead and set up to make a web-based operating system basically all the apps you need to run your business in, on the internet, on the web. Our first product that we did was website maker because that was the hottest thing that needed to be automated and it was called Instant Web. Believe it or not, it’s still there, but it's an older product, but it at that point competed with Microsoft - not Microsoft - CompuServe, AOL, Spy and those people. A piece in Computing wrote an article and gave us the number one spot, and said this is the easiest and best product to use. That one article brought us thousands of clients. It was very very nice and that gave me a nice shot in the arm both for the revenue, but also for the fact that I realize that other people are embracing this concept of automation and centralization.
I remember calling our team together and I said in the future they would either think we're idiots or geniuses so let's work on the genius part. So the world caught up with us and thank God they went the direction that we went. Cloud became a word and everybody's doing that way so now we are quite happy that we are in sync. Our vision was cloud first, and we did it. It’s not an afterthought for us and the whole vision of having a centralized place on the web to have all the apps you need to run your business with, in one place that vision is coming through and true.
Frank: What was it like when you started telling people in `95 that the best operating system was going to be no operating system at all?
Siamak: It was absolutely difficult than uphill. I remember one year we hired four hundred thousand dollars worth of salespeople and sales processes, and we only got forty thousand dollars in new sales. So we literally, by any standard, we were awful at it. The reason was that people weren't quite understanding the benefits, but the thing I tell all people - and I talk to a lot of younger entrepreneurs and I really enjoy entrepreneurship so I want to let them know - is that you have to have passion and then once you have the passion you have to stick with that. It's not to the point that if you see all the sign - like if you're going from here to Chicago, if all the signs say Seattle - then you're not going to u-turn. You’re obviously gonna to do that, but the point is you have to go through the passion and not get slowed down with things that seemed more important than the bigger goal.
By the way, that's an easier said than done thing because so many people, they go to their work. They're making a nice paycheck and everything like that. They have a desk and they have a phone and they have a computer, and they say I can go work for myself and I could do this and why can't I do that At that point, they don't think about all the other things that an organization brings like the HR, the legal, the sales or whatnot, and they go start a company. To me, if they have a passion they will be succeeding, but if they don't have the passion, within a few months, they're gonna miss that paycheck. This might be the reason and the explanation why eight out of ten small businesses go belly-up in the first year because of that passion missing. You have to have the passion to see it through. At times it's very very difficult and I missed my nice paycheck, but in reality, I'm very happy that we persevered and now we're very successful and very happy. Everybody in the team is still gung-ho and passionate because all along, all the things we've been saying is now coming true.
Frank: How do you sustain that passion when things are getting tough?
Siamak: See the thing is...that's a very good question. The way to do that is to not have passion be dictated to people. It's like raising a child. You can’t really raise a child. You got to lead by example. Every person, every child has their own personality and you need to bring the best out in their personality So we have some policies in this company, some models, that really help us run the company and really brings out that passion in people. First of all, we cheat a little bit. Let me tell you how we cheat. We don’t hire people based on their knowledge and aptitude at all; meaning that obviously, I won't bring a taxi driver to run our website, but the reality is that once they come in, we have a policy that says that the personality and attitude have more to do with success than knowledge and aptitude combined.
So we first look at people and we look at the personality. We have everybody in the team that they're going to work with interview them and if they don't seem like a right fit, we really don't care how knowledgeable they are. If they are really really knowledgeable, we use them as a consultant and have them for two, three months come and help us out the next day, but we don't have them as part of the team so we basically have a no jerk policy because I figure if somebody's a jerk at 30 years old if their mom couldn't fix it, I sure as hell cannot fix it. So, therefore, I give up on that.
So we cheat a little bit and we hire good people, but the other thing that we do with that brings out the passion is, first of all, we have an open company. Outside of people’s salaries, everything is open. They know how much money, how much money we lose sometimes, whatever all the things that they're. We have a bunch of mottos that we put on the kitchen wall for people to use and read, and see this is the thing. This whole idea of hire people based on personality is one of those models, but probably the single most effective thing that we've done is that we've had this massive loyalty in our employees is that we have delegation policy that's a little bit different. I actually call it a lattice structure management versus a pyramid structure management. When the pyramid structure you have the top, you've got the middle, you’ve got the bottom. The bottom is often, especially the middle, but the bottom is often squished under the weight of all the people at the top, and they sometimes have to just work to keep the people above them happy, but in our model, we have a lattice structure. It’s more like a lattice or a trust bridge that you have a lot in midwest and stuff that at every point is in support of every other point, and the person closest to the problem is the one that's going to make a decision. So I may be the CEO of the company, but for instance, if the janitor comes in and says our vacuum cleaner is broken, it shouldn’t be my decision to decide which vacuum cleaner to buy. He's closest to the problem and he's going to make that decision and I'm going to support it, line up in that support.
So when you empower people you actually give them passion because entrepreneurship does not ever succeed without passion. Therefore we have a company of a bunch of little entrepreneurs. That is why some people say well that's very difficult to manage, but if you delegate properly everybody has their own area, and then we all work in unison together, you get very nice results with very little tension. Even after twenty years most of us go to lunch together every day and you know it's just still fun.
Frank: That's awesome. Tell me a little bit, I remember when first spoke, Sia, you told me something like, there's a certain percentage of your employees that are human and then for the rest of it, you employ technology. Let’s talk a little bit about that.
Siamak: That's right. We have a motto on our kitchen wall that says, “only ten percent of our employees are human, for the rest we employ technology” and that's the whole concept of automation and the concept of railroad tracking because the reality of it is that it's a lot of hard work, right? Since some people like to do it the hard way, but the world has moved on. For instance, let me give an example. In the old days, they used to ride a horse and it would maybe take him fifty days or eighty days to get from here to Chicago, and now horseback riding has just become a hobby. Nobody really does it for transportation.
So the model has changed, but some people are still doing something is very hard, very tedious, a lot of paperwork and stuff like that. I find that that is counter to the company’s growth, especially the smaller the company. Some people - because we talk to small businesses all the time - some people always say, “Well a lot of processes and stuff, those are for the bigger companies, not for us.”. I actually counter that to them and I say, for instance, if Microsoft starts a hundred projects and ninety-eight of them fail, but two of them make it, Microsoft is happy cause they're going to make a lot of money with their scale; but if you start even two projects and one of them fail, you may have to lay off four people for that. So you are you are having to make every hit be that hit, every project be the hit project. So, therefore, you need to think about it, you need to plan it, you need to process it, and to paraphrase Eisenhower, “No battle was ever won without a plan, but no battle was ever won according to plan.”. So you need to have the plan, you need to do that, and once you plan two, three times, the plan isn't going to change. You cast the stone and don't have a human do it. Write a program to do it.
Like I said, people thought that we could never automate sales, but we currently don't have any salespeople in our company. People come in, they go to our website, they go to our app market, they buy the app, they signup, they put in their credentials and they're using it that minute. They might be at 3 am where all our sales potential people are sleeping and they're working. So we really have managed to automate sales. So everything is possible if you think outside the box of possible. The reality of it is that you really do want to do that to give yourself a competitive advantage.
Frank: Awesome awesome. So you've got big things going on in July so what have we got going on in July for Info Street?
Siamak: Right so let me give it a little bit of background. One of my great philosophies about the cloud and the internet is that it's a great democratizer. What I mean by that is some of the things that were only available to the large businesses in let's say even as soon as ten years ago or fifteen years ago; now because of the cloud, they’re available to everybody. You could actually see this by the growth of small business in the past five to ten years or something. You can see that the population growth and let's say in the past decade is about three percent, but the growth of small businesses about twenty-seven percent. The reason for that is now the are more things that are in front of them that they could do. Let's say our grandpa, when he wanted to start a company, he had to get an office and he had to get a secretary cause heaven forbid of if grandpa made his own coffee or answered his own phone. Then he had to get an accountant and he had to sit there. So minimal startup costs like five or six people and there are very few people that overcome that.
Nowadays you could work from home or work from some of these shared office spaces or whatnot. You don't really need a secretary. You could answer your own phone, voicemail, whatever. There's a lot of the new businesses that are starting up so what we thought was - since we really champion the small businesses, that's our entire focus - what we thought we would do is put a small business startup plan. That is putting some packages together and say that these are the minimum set that every small business would need and here they are. We even have a free version of it for everybody and here's the plus version and the pro version. People could go ahead and use this so that we could foster small business growth, and we could also not have them wonder what do I need next so where do I go next.
Frank: Ok and what are what are some of the stuff like in the in the small business starter bundle, what are some of the must-haves in there that every small business needs?
Siamak: So every small business needs applications such as web site making. They need applications such as editing black Google apps, if you will. They need to go ahead and word documents, spreadsheets, and whatnot. Every one of them needs some sort of antivirus protection such as Norton's product. They need a CRM. That would be in there. Some need a survey product. Some people need a screen sharing product. In reality, pretty much, there is a very nice middle ground of five or six or ten applications that every small business owner would want. They want the email. They would want a calendar. They want address book. They definitely want file-sharing. They definitely want task and workflow so we are providing all that. We are providing one version for free and upgraded versions for very little amount of money, basically for what it will cost to eat in lunch in Chicago, maybe dinner.
Frank: Beautiful. Okay and we're going to put together - what's the URL that we want people to go to? So just so the listening audience knows, you said July. We're recording this right now here in June and obviously, when this goes live, it will be July; so once this goes live, this will be available. So what URL should they go to, Sia, to take advantage of this?
Siamak: So the URL be thefoundation.skydesktop.com. If they go to skydesktop.com, they see what Info Street does and what our products are, but we've made a special page for the listeners of this podcast called thefoundation.skydesktop.com.
Frank: Perfect and we’ll drop that in the show notes as well.
Siamak: What we're doing - just to live by our words because that's what we do all the time - is that for small businesses, anybody who would listen to this podcast, we're gonna make sure that they get additional discount for the packages that they're getting, and that discount would be ten percent additional discount.
Frank: Aw that's beautiful Sia. I like it I like it. I know I when we first talked to you had the - you described to me your pay-it-forward model. You genuinely believed in the value of the small business community. You want to impact and give back to the community.
Siamak: Absolutely. Absolutely
Frank: That's beautiful. So you guys are going to see in the show notes exactly where to go if you want to jump on that. Sia, honestly you've taken us down a really amazing journey over the last thirty-five minutes or so. Your experience, just amazing. I mean you've pretty much served in every possible capacity you could in a technology company, and I think the listeners are really going to appreciate everything that you took us through here today. So thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure having you.
Siamak: I appreciate it. Thank you very much for having me. It was an absolute pleasure talking to you.
Frank: Alright Sia. Take care.
Siamak: Talk to you soon.j